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 The RJ Political Thread, (The Elephant in the Room)

Ruggiero
post Jul 25 2004, 10:15 AM
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I thought it was about time to start a thread on this topic, as it is sneaking into a lot of other topics on the board.

As the election nears, we are presented with a choice. To my mind the choice is an important one, and one that everyone, even those not of voting age, should take seriously. Young people can affect things as well: you can ask parents questions, tell them your concerns, you can get friends talking in school. It is about getting people invigorated and excited by the political process, as it is the only process we have by which we can affect our lives. This is about participation on all levels, not just the one where you go in and leave your hanging chad.

One is responsible for the ideas they hold and profess; and that is a big responsibility, especially when one's views and votes directly affects not only one's own life, but others around you. A vote is not to be cast, in my opinion, in self-interest.

I understand that this can be a very touchy and heartfelt subject for some. I know it is for me. So, I would hope we can keep the discussion civil, and generous, and open, rather than acidic. I will shut this thread down if it becomes too angry, or too personal. I hope it can be about learning the positions of people in the community, open and informative dissent, and clarifying one's own views. As I alluded to in another thread, the thing that takes the most courage, is changing your mind.

-----------------------------

This is not an election as in 2000 where we had two candidates vying for the same spot. There is an incumbent president, and the election is in many ways, a referendum on his performance, and the direction in which he is leading the nation. So, to start the discussion off, I will present the (NOW SHORTENED) article below as a starting point, the case against the status quo, which just appeared in The New Republic. It is solid journalism.

If anyone doesn't know this yet, full disclosure: I am a liberal thinker, though registered independent. I look forward to hearing and learning from what everyone has to say.

Ruggiero


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Ruggiero
post Jul 25 2004, 10:17 AM
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Edited down to something more manageable. Emphasis mine.

I attach the full article as a text file to the next post if you want to read it all. smile.gif

The Case Against Bush

--From The New Republic

Bush and his allies ... have routinely violated norms of political conduct, smothered information necessary for informed public debate, and illegitimately exploited government power to perpetuate their rule. These habits are not just mean and nasty. They're undemocratic.

What does it mean to call the president "undemocratic"? It does not mean Bush is an aspiring dictator. Despite descending from a former president and telling confidants that God chose him to lead the country, he does not claim divine right of rule. He is not going to cancel the election or rig it with faulty ballots. (Well, almost certainly not.) But democracy can be a matter of degree. Russia and the United States are both democracies, but the United States is more democratic than Russia. The proper indictment of the Bush administration is, therefore, not that he's abandoning American democracy, but that he's weakening it. This administration is, in fact, the least democratic in the modern history of the presidency.

************

....Who else has the White House tried to keep in the dark? Oh yes: the public--the people who Bush says "want to know the truth." "For the past three years, the Bush administration has quietly but efficiently dropped a shroud of secrecy across many critical operations of the federal government--cloaking its own affairs from scrutiny and removing from the public domain important information on health, safety, and environmental matters," concluded a long investigation by U.S. News & World Report last December....

************

...One particularly egregious example is the administration's persistent effort to cultivate in the public mind a connection between Iraq and the September 11 terrorist attacks in order to justify a war to oust Saddam Hussein. As one White House adviser told The New York Times, "If you discount the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda, then you discount the proposition that it's part of the war on terror. If it's not part of the war on terror, then what is it--some cockeyed adventure on the part of George W. Bush?"

So the administration led Americans to believe that Iraq had aided in the attacks on us. Cheney, for example, repeatedly referred to an alleged 2001 meeting between September 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague--even though the CIA determined the meeting never took place. ........... This campaign of misinformation succeeded. During the run-up to the war, a large majority of Americans implicated Iraq in the September 11 attacks. Even if you supported the Iraq war (as I did), this fact must be considered a serious problem for American democracy. Bush did not obtain, or even seek, the rational, informed consent of the public....

Falsehoods were embedded in nearly every aspect of Bush's sales pitch: his claim that his tax cut would amount to just one-fourth of the projected surplus (his own figures showed one-third); his assertion that "by far the vast majority of my tax cut goes to those at the bottom" (in fact, some 40 percent went to the wealthiest 1 percent); and his repeated claim that a waitress earning $20,000 a year was the paradigmatic beneficiary of his tax cut (in truth, most such waitresses got nothing from Bush's plan, and the few who did benefit received about $125)....

Don't all politicians fudge the truth from time to time? Sure. The difference is that, over the last few years, misinformation has become fundamental, rather than incidental, to the political process....


************

How much damage will Bush ultimately do? The answer is still to be determined, and the biggest single thing that will determine it takes place on November 2.


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Ruggiero
post Jul 25 2004, 10:26 AM
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The article: .txt format

Attached File(s)
Attached File  Case_Against_Bush.txt ( 29.32k ) Number of downloads: 381


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JayBaen
post Jul 27 2004, 08:41 PM
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That's quite a lot to take in. Gotta let that soak before I respond.

Here's a nice "bump" to keep it on the front burner.

JB


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Ruggiero
post Jul 28 2004, 12:32 PM
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OK, ok. I take your point. I have edited it down to be more approachable. The entire article is still there, if you want to read the whole thing.

Ruggiero


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InfiniteWarrior
post Aug 2 2004, 10:28 PM
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Nobody's sayin' nuthin'. dry.gif So, I will.

Very informative, if edited (download the whole thing), post there, Rugg. Thanks for the additional info.

Now...

I am not a liberal thinker; neither am I a conservative one. I simply think. And I think that, when coming up on an election such as this one (which is so much more important than any other I can remember in so many ways), one must...

1) listen to the candidates (all of 'em, not just the ones running for the top spots) and get an idea of their stance on "the issues",

2) listen to what others are saying/have said/have reported/have leaked/have "documented"/ad infinitum and try your best to filter out the crap before you...

3) run all that purified knowledge through the maze of your own common sense/your own heart/your own mind/your own prejudices/your own desires for the betterment of the nation and then...

4) GO VOTE!

That last being most important (or all else is for naught), you also have to remember one thing: No one who ever runs for public office is running for WE, the People. They're running for personal gain - this group or that group or another group or their companies or their egos or their wives. But, never, ever for us.

Bearing all of that in mind, my vote in November will be cast as it always has been. I will vote for (what seems to me, at least)...

The Lesser of Two Evils.
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XeroSaber
post Aug 3 2004, 02:15 AM
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je ne vote pas. tongue.gif i dont vote in the presidential election. why? because this is TX and Bush is gonna get this states electoral votes no matter what basically. i barely turned of voting age, so i might in smaller elections, but presidential ones this year are pointless.
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JayBaen
post Aug 3 2004, 07:02 AM
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It's the only freedom I can think of that when excersized, leads to less of itself:

The freedom to not vote.

A conundrum from which there is no escaping the repercussions.

JB


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Ruggiero
post Aug 3 2004, 10:42 AM
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Not really a conundrum in my eyes: It just gives control of your fate and wishes to others.

R


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JayBaen
post Aug 3 2004, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE(Ruggiero @ Aug 3 2004, 11:42 AM)
It just gives control of your fate and wishes to others.

... and that is the dilemma. The freedom to have given up one's choices.

It's a non-issue for me, I vote.

I just find the argument Xero presents as one that is pitted against itself by definition.

JB


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Ruggiero
post Aug 3 2004, 02:20 PM
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Here is a really readable and clear denunciation of the present administration. Interesting to note the author, no?

Ron Regan Jr.'s Case Against Bush.

OUCH.

Ruggiero


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InfiniteWarrior
post Aug 3 2004, 06:13 PM
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And in steps the Mistress of Subtlety to play Devil's Advocate once again. user posted image

Jay is right in that such an argument is pitted against itself due to its very foundation. Rugg is right in that refusing to vote does indeed relinquish one's control to fate. It might also be argued, however, that voting - in fact - does the same. After all, we have no absolutely no control over what those we elect DO once in office and it's rarely ever what they say. wink.gif Either way, our collective fates are to one degree or another in the hands of "others" - whether we helped put them in office or not. The only way to change that is to run for office ourselves. But, uh... we're much too smart for that, eh? (As is Colin Powell, you'll notice. *ahem*)

However...

There is one scenario in which excercising the choice not to vote may be the wisest one. Suppose one does all that homework - learning the process, the issues, the candidates' stances, etc. - and fails to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion?

Perhaps I should have deliniated this step, but didn't. It's more or less implied. Before one can vote, one must arrive at a conclusion that doesn't fly in the face of his conscience - in one direction or the other (or another, if you want to get technical). Now, THAT'S a dilemma. To cast a vote in any direction in this instance would be akin to throwing a dart at a pigeonhole in a darkened room - with a blindfold on. No telling what you might hit. And this, to me, would be just as irresponsible as failing to educate oneself before casting a vote. To whom? To one's self.

Suppose - just suppose - there is no "lesser of two evils". Suppose one comes to the conclusion (and it's valid) that either choice would be equally as bad (or good - let's keep it in the realm of philosophy). Suppose this ONE doesn't want to be responsible for helping to put either SOB... I mean, candidate... in office. If this ONE should cast a vote and things turn EVEN MORE sour, this ONE is going to have to live with the knowledge that he voted... against his conscience.

So, what...? He's supposed to vote and hope he gets it right? Hmmm... And if he doesn't? Then, what?

Well, I've excercised my right not to vote and I was ever so glad to have it. Imagine if we lived in a country where everyone was forced to vote. (Not a real democracy, but there we are.) It is one of the privileges we have left and a valid one.

Now, absolutely everyone will bash you over the head for this, regardless of the circumstances. "You'd give up your right to VOTE?" To that, I say, you betcha. IF - and ONLY if - it's the only conclusion I can come to that I can live with. I don't answer to anyone else; I answer to me... well, and One other. smile.gif And I've slept much better these past four years knowing... hey, I'm not responsible for any of this.

Now, you may think otherwise, but I believe deep down in the marrow of my being that if one cannot arrive at a conclusion they can live with, it would do more harm to throw that dart; not only to oneself, but to those "others" Rugg speaks of. It does affect them, too.

Back to the argument at hand... dry.gif

Invalid reasons to not vote:
  • My vote doesn't count. Why bother? (Prove it.)
  • It's the electorate that decides who's put in office. They can vote for another candidate regardless of the majority voice of the state. (Yeah. That should definitely be addressed. But nothing - and no one - is perfect, is it? That includes our political system.)
  • Even if I vote, they'll just do what they want. So, what does it matter? (Well. That's true to a point. But, chances are 50-50 they'll do what they told you they would. And you'll feel great if they do.)
Ready for my bashing now (on that sticky, sticky little point). smile.gif For what it's worth... just don't make the decision to excercise your right of dissent WITH NO FACTS OR STUDY AT ALL.
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Ruggiero
post Aug 3 2004, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE(InfiniteWarrior @ Aug 3 2004, 06:13 PM)
Well, I've excercised my right not to vote and I was ever so glad to have it.....And I've slept much better these past four years knowing... hey, I'm not responsible for any of this.

.........

For what it's worth... just don't make the decision to excercise your right of dissent WITH NO FACTS OR STUDY AT ALL.

Well Put, Infi:

Some thoughts spring to mind, of course. smile.gif

EVERY VOTE COUNTS: 540 votes in Florida was all it took... and five on the Supreme Court.

First: Personally, I believe it is a citizen's responsibility to be as informed as possible about the choices at hand, and to cast one's vote for the candidate which closest matches your opinions on the issues of the day. Saying "I am uninformed, therefore I will not vote" to me only says that "I am an irresponsible citizen." As we are all in this together, I feel it is one's duty to oneself, but moreso to one's fellow citizens to be informed.

The Control which we have over those we (or in this case, the supreme court) has put into office, (and which I hope we will exercise come November) is that we get to say "you didn't do well." and vote the person out. We do not have day by day control, but we do have at least SOME measure of control, and that control comes ONLY through our vote. Public action is important (e.g. protest, etc.) but direct control comes through the voting booth.

I do think that it is possible for a reasonable person to form an opinion that neither of the major-party candidates will be good for the country, and as such, choose not to cast one's vote for either one. So, whether one votes for Nader, a green, or Pat Buchanan, or whoever, that is all fine, and I would be the last to take away that right. However, it is also important to be pragmatic: One can't productively live in a moral absolutist world when one is a member of a very diverse population. And, given where we are now, and where we were four years ago, perhaps that pragmatic approach isn't the stupidest idea around.

IMHO, Voting for the "lesser of two evils" is STILL moving in the right direction. As the green party candidate said in an interview earlier this year "The differences between the major party candidates may be incremental, but they are not inconsequential." That speaks volumes, especially when one takes into consideration the appointments which will be made to the Supreme Court; who can hopefully overturn some of the loony Ashcroftian laws that have been passed.


-----

As for "not being responsible" for any of this... I am not sure we would be in Iraq now, had the other guy won, for example. Is that "not being responsible?" Of course: one who did not vote is not directly responsible for Bush the Second's actions. But that same person is not devoid of responsibility either... to their fellow citizens who are fighting and dying in what I feel is an unjust war.

Ruggiero

P.s. In Australia, one gets fined if one doesn't vote.


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Kyzene
post Aug 3 2004, 08:03 PM
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Guess what....if I had to vote...as in right now, no thinking or anything, I'd go for Bush, personally...I don't know why, but Kerry bugs me. I just Do Not like him, at all..But then again...it might be the fact that i learned about politics from someone from Florida...(more republicans down there...that ive seen) so my beliefs about the gov't and things like that are..i dunno more conservative i guess...


Ky


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Ruggiero
post Aug 3 2004, 08:15 PM
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Kyzene,

I admire you for getting involved and forming opinions even when you can't vote.

Just make sure those opinions are informed, and are informed in the understanding that your opinions, once you cast your vote, will be affecting other people. As such, they have to be formed with more than simply oneself in mind.

My hat is off, despite the fact that I disagree with you. wink.gif

Ruggiero


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