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 Speaking Of Macs..., *Ducks*

SubtleStar
post Feb 9 2007, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE(Kyzene @ Feb 9 2007, 02:21 AM)
With the $200 extra I have I could take advantage of the 16GB of RAM limit on my motherboard..


How much would a Mac like that set me back?
*



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Ruggiero
post Feb 9 2007, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE(Kyzene @ Feb 9 2007, 02:21 AM)
So many ridiculous things added on.....


Oh, Kyzene, Kyzene, Kyzene...

I am happy to admit that you can strip a PC down and get a lot of hardware for a little, but to bring that PC to where the Mac is "out of the box" you have to add a LOT; there is no arguement you can make to the contrary. In order to bring your machine to where the mac is in terms of included thingamajigs, you have to add them. Your machine still has nowhere near the things included "out of the box" on the iMac--which is a consumer-level machine!

no video camera
no "out-of-the-box" system-migration tool, no photo program (when booting up a new mac, connect it to your old one with a firewire cable, and everything moves over seamlessly--no reconfiguring necessary)
no dvd authoring program
5 usb ports
no microphone
no firewire (which is used on all SORTS of things, esp. video cameras)
no photo program like iPhoto
no movie program like iMovie
nothing like GarageBand
nothing like FrontRow
no video-chat software
no voice-regognition
no remote,
no wireless networking,
no bluetooth,
and the list goes on....
Specs

Sure, there are freeware alternatives to SOME of the software above, but not many on par with the ones included out of the box on my little machine... Basically, think of it this way: what are you going to have to pay to get the added hardware above, as well as the added software? And let's not even think of the time you will spend......

As for your "shiny" case.... (if by "shiny" you mean "ugly,")

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Methinks I still like this better... look mom, not a wire in sight...

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Ruggiero

P.s what's this?


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Kyzene
post Feb 9 2007, 03:55 PM
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Are you sure that firewire gets used in video cameras a lot? Because most of the top-end cameras I'm looking at on newegg use USB, AV, or S-Video. Some of them do support more, though. Oh, and it does have firewire, it's onboard with my motherboard.

Your USB port count is a little skewed, as well. You have 3 USB 2.0 ports, and 2 1.1 ports that are included on your keyboard. Also, my computer had 6 USB 2.0 ports, so I don't see why I would need to add anything.

As far as wireless networking goes, I could add that in pretty cheap from the $200 I have left over..if it was actually worth it.

Also, with the computer that I had built, I would be able to easily and cheaply upgrade that thing for a very long time. How easy is it to upgrade that iMac?

QUOTE


And yes, you get all kinds of niftty gadgets with your new computer, but how often do you update your video blog, Rugg? From what I'm reading on Apple, that seems like the thing they're really pushing. I can't say much about the software, you do get a lot of programs bundled in with that thing. But I still maintain that you can get a lot of freeware for the PC that will do almost the exact same thing. I added a lot of things into that build that could have gone into getting a bunch of programs that I would never use.. but I would rather have a computer that will be pretty decent for a good while instead of being able to quickly update my video blog. I didn't need dual video cards, or 2 GB of RAM, or a 5.1 speaker system, and I could have lived without a mouse that has fingerprint technology.. but they're things I would be a lot more likely to use.


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SubtleStar
post Feb 9 2007, 10:23 PM
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no video camera <-- no one cares. Besides, most people like a camera they can actually MOVE around, without having to change the position their monitor sits.

no "out-of-the-box" system-migration tool <-- Windows has had a system-migration tool built in since XP. Nice try, though.

no dvd authoring program <-- built into Windows Vista.

5 usb ports <-- 4 backside, 2 front on Kyzene's. ALL USB 2.0

no microphone <-- because the first thing I'm going to want to do when I buy a new computer is use my microphone! I mean. That’s definitely the ONE deciding factor when buying a new computer</sarcasm>. They’re incredibly cheap, and we do have $200 left over, after all.

no firewire <-- Firewire is built on the motherboard. rofl.

no photo program like iPhoto <-- Windows Photo Gallery, built into Vista. Has the same functionality(and then some), which you Mac fanboys have been crying about for months.

no movie program like iMovie <-- We have a program for that. It's been around since XP.

nothing like GarageBand <-- Easily solved with a freeware program.

nothing like FrontRow <-- Forgive us for not being lazy enough, that we need to have a program to utilize a remote control. Just for access to our music, photos, movies, etc.

no video chat software <-- WTF? MSN, skype, yahoo, aim... "But they don't come ‘out-of-the-box!! Lolol’". Well, we don't need everything spoon-fed to us. Like you Mac users.

no voice-regognition <-- regognition? never heard of it. I have, however, heard of voice recognition. That's built into vista as well. But, really, no one cares about that stuff.

no remote <-- 'cause that's SUPER important to the usefulness of a PC.

no wireless networking <-- Wireless cards are cheap, and that machine has quite a bit of room for expansion. Unlike your precious Mac. Besides, most people like to have a constant transfer rate on their network... Instead of the ups and downs that can happen on a wireless network. Stability while playing an online game is something important, too and is sometimes problematic on a wireless network. But seeing as you guys can’t play many games, I can see how that isn’t an issue for you.

no bluetooth <-- Should we EVER need Bluetooth connectivity, a USB adapter can be bought. I have yet to own anything that utilizes Bluetooth.

P.s what's this? <-- WOW, Ghost Recon?!?! You can play a game that was originally launched in 2001 for PC’s?! That’s a step up for Mac.. The game that comes with Kyzene's system was released in May, of last year.

It's hard being wrong, all the time, Ruggiero, I know. But just take consolation in the fact that you are not alone.

happy.gif happy.gif happy.gif
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Ruggiero
post Feb 10 2007, 04:06 PM
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Sub,

I think you are missing the point.... your position is, basically, if I understand it correctly, that one can buy a well-powered but stripped-down PC for less cash than a Mac, and upgrade it through all sorts of freeware, etc. and purchase extras like bluetooth, etc. to get it somewhere near where the Mac is out of the box. That has never been in dispute. Of course you can. You can also build your own car one piece at a time if you want.

However, out of the box with a Mac, one gets a lot, is what I am saying. A lot more that one has to manually install/buy for your stripped-down PC. Some people choose to have that. Yes it costs more, but to bring a stripped-down PC up to par with it, one has to do a lot of work, spend a good amount of time, and spend a substantial amount of cash.

As for the video camera and other gee-gaws that you say "no one cares about," I would ask you to not extrapolate the general from your particular case. People DO care about these things. If you don't, that's fine.

For example, the built-in video camera, speakers, and microphone. Though I didn't think I would use them, I suddenly found myself doing so all the time: I used it to video-chat with my family while I was in Canada all summer. I see pictures of my sister's baby. A certain scaly guy and I have done it a couple of times as well. It, like a microwave, is one of those things that one can get along with without, and people did for a long time, but once one has one, one finds that one uses it all the time. The remote? Sure, I plug my mac into the TV and watch movies with it all the time-- not just DVDs, but xvid, anything. Even Liz, who most people would assume is as hard-core a pc'er as anyone, finds himself using them now that he has them. Again, it's like a microwave.

The Mac's programs & interface are all now being emulated by Microsoft, which, I guess, if one considers "imitation the sincerest form of flattery" is a good thing. (As that author quoted above pointed out, even your "new" interface is called "Aero"-- three vowels and a consonant... like "Aqua?") Again, your new programs "built into" Vista are... how old? Right, new additions to the platform. So, you guys are catching up to where the Mac was in this department 3 years ago.

By the way, it is obvious, that you have never used Garage-band, or you would not propose a "freeware" alternative. GarageBand comes with something like three GIGABYTES of loops, software and hardware instruments, effects, etc. It is not just a audio-recording or tracking program. Ditto PhotoGallery-iPhoto; Freewarere-Movie-editor/iMovie; iWeb, etc.

Walk a mile in a Mac's (stylin') shoes before poopoohing the experience. You might be pleasantly surprised.

--Ruggiero

P.s. By the way, I own both a PC and a Mac, so I have walked that mile.

======

Addendum on cost:

QUOTE


http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/660E...B951501472.html

---A Mac user since 2000, upgrading to each new version of Mac OS X:
 
1. •$300 in operating system updates, or nearly $400 if purchased at full retail.
2. •Three major new releases that significantly improved performance of the same hardware and introduced new apps.
3. •Thirty one regular minor updates with bug fixes and new features, in addition to many security updates.
4. •No antivirus needed
5. •No spyware cleaning needed
6.
7. •Total cost of maintaining Mac OS X software: about $50 a year, or around $350since 2000.

 
----A Professional Windows user since 2000, upgrading at the one opportunity available:
 
1. •$200 upgrade to XP Professional, or $300 for a new retail version.
2. •One major new release that improved reliability but not the performance of old hardware.
3. •Two minor service pack updates focused on bugs and security features, and around fifty security patches since SP2.
4. •Seven years of AntiVirus 2000 $50, plus $30 for six annual updates = $230
5. •Spyware and security cleaning by Geek Squad: a $200 annual servicing over seven years = $1400

=====

or

http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/0227...tau.html?page=1

The results of this TCO astounded me. For my small enterprise, owning a WinTel box for three years costs twice as much as owning a MacTel. When I talked with several of our clients, I found that the burdened cost of ownership per PC - just for support - ranged from $1,300 to $4,000 per year.


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InfiniteWarrior
post Feb 10 2007, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE
Yes it costs more, but to bring a stripped-down PC up to par with it, one has to do a lot of work, spend a good amount of time, and spend a substantial amount of cash.


And slap it every once in a while like the Tardis. biggrin.gif My goodness, you boys take this computer stuff seriously. Yet, no one has addressed how far Apple is willing to go to embrace quite a completely different shade of green.

QUOTE
In December of 2006, Greenpeace released a report ranking the overall environmental policy of major technology companies. Dell was at the top but Apple found itself at the bottom. While top companies like Dell and Nokia have made great strides to eliminate the most toxic chemicals from their products and offer strong recycling programs, Apple has not.


Oopsie. Has lessor market share driven Apple to abandon its most basic humanistic principles?ohmy.gif Perhaps it should spend less time chasing green stuff and make an effort to be a more hip brand of PC: Environmentally-mindful. "Don't try to look green, be green." Then, the extra cost will be warranted for purposes other than the ol' Apple corporation bottom line. (They really don't want to be confused with a corporation.... Right?)
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Ruggiero
post Feb 10 2007, 07:25 PM
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Yeah, I have seen that; one of the other editorials I read was that Greenpeace was targeting Apple (which, it turns out, in point of fact, is substantively no worse than others) because they thought Apple would listen.


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InfiniteWarrior
post Feb 10 2007, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE(Ruggiero @ Feb 10 2007, 08:25 PM)
one of the other editorials I read was that Greenpeace was targeting Apple (which, it turns out, in point of fact, is substantively no worse than others)


True that... by EPA standards, which the others are already above.

QUOTE
Apple contends that it is as green as it needs to be and supports that contention with the Silver medal it earned from the EPA's U.S. Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) back in July of 2006. Yet Apple uses the EPEAT results to refute the Greenpeace grade. Obvious disparities aside, even though Apple did well by EPEAT standards, it still didn't earn a Gold medal. Shouldn't an industry leader strive to achieve the highest possible grade?


Especially if Apple doesn't want to be compared to the evil imperials. They may indeed have no reason to worry, though, since both scaly and bionic (ntm, leading) citizens of the empire side with the Rebellion in the Web Wars. wink.gif

QUOTE
A long time ago in a vir.tu.al domain far, far away…
The war between the Standardista Rebels and The Legacy Empire wages on. The Empire’s armies and spies, led by the evil Kludge Lord Darth Gates, have driven the Standardistas far across MySpace.


Hi-larious.
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DOA
post Feb 11 2007, 09:43 PM
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hehe....i love readin these tete a tete discussions. anywho you should check out some of the builds our TC members are doing on the forums. pretty sweet system! e6400 core 2 processor (o/c to over 3GHz easy), 2Gb ram, 320GB hard drive, 8800 gts nvidia card...all built for around $1200 biggrin.gif oh and just for the record even though ill be building my own pc gaming system soon.....Rug has over the last few years dragged me to the realization that macs have some very valid and superior offerings (i fought hard but his arguments were just too convincing)...yeah yeah i said it tongue.gif

so....im thinkin of grabbin a mac laptop as well once i save up enough.


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SubtleStar
post Feb 26 2007, 09:07 PM
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"Sub,

I think you are missing the point.... "


Only point I was making was that your list was made of fail. Out of that entire list that you posted, the only things we didn't have were the Mic, Webcam, bluetooth and wireless network card. While thinking about your "Frontrow" stuff...I later realized that we do have something for that. Media Center. Which has been around since 2002 and is included in the build of Vista we chose.

As for the webcam. It should have read "no one cares to have one built into their monitor" (except for Mac people, of course.). I can understand that being done for laptops, and I think it’s a good idea. But for desktops, I stand by my statement. Most people want something they can move around.

"but to bring a stripped-down PC up to par with it, one has to do a lot of work, spend a good amount of time, and spend a substantial amount of cash."

We seemed to do pretty well bringing it to the same functionality... you must have forgot the part where we SAVED money. Somehow, I don't think missing a wireless or Bluetooth card = a “stripped-down PC". Same with the microphone. A lot of people end up buying headsets now, anyway. And if we ditched the extra video card to keep it the same as your Mac, that’s $300 left over to buy those things.

The only reason you guys get ALL that stuff, is because they HAVE to give you it. You can’t build a Mac. You can't upgrade a Mac (RAM doesn't count). So they have to shove all that stuff down your throat whether you like it or not. I prefer to save money, and buy something that fits my personal needs. Not a whole whack of **** thrown in that I'll never use, that only serves to bump up the price.

Enjoy your computer that'll be obsolete in a year from now.

"The Mac's programs & interface are all now being emulated by Microsoft"

Programs, perhaps….interface? Looks pretty much the same to me.

"Again, your new programs "built into" Vista are... how old? Right, new additions to the platform. So, you guys are catching up to where the Mac was in this department 3 years ago."

Oh, man! Thank you for saying that!! I had made a bet with someone that even though we have practically everything Mac's have... You'd say something like "but we had it first!" It doesn’t matter who had it first. If I can get the same things for a Windows based PC, why should I or anyone else switch?

"By the way, it is obvious, that you have never used Garage-band, or you would not propose a "freeware" alternative. GarageBand comes with something like three GIGABYTES of loops"

Wait...so the music is already done for you? You just put the loops together? Didn't I say something about being spoon-fed...? I suppose if we even cared to match Garage-band, we could get something like FL Studio.

"Ditto PhotoGallery-iPhoto; Freewarere-Movie-editor/iMovie; iWeb, etc."

Are you saying that iPhoto comes with 3 GIGABYTES of pictures already...so you don't have to go out and take some yourself?! And the same with iMovie? BTW, I didn't say we had a "Freeware- Movie-editor” We’ve been able to edit and make our own movies with Windows Movie Maker since XP. And iWeb? Give me a break. That’s just as lame as people using FrontPage to make a website. According to my research, people who want to make a REAL web pages use Dreamweaver.

"Walk a mile in a Mac's (stylin') shoes before poopoohing the experience. You might be pleasantly surprised."

I wasn't poopoohing the experience. Only thing I 'poopoohed' was your list. I have nothing against Macs aside from them becoming paperweights too soon, and the fanboys who think they’re the be-all end-all of computing. Quit being a victim of the Reality Distortion Field. You might find it refreshing.

For those of you not in the know, and for those under its influence:

QUOTE
The Reality Distortion Field is the mutant capability of Steve Jobs. It is like Magneto's power of magnetism, only in this case, it will make you want to buy an Apple product. An example of the Reality Distortion Field in action was the original iMac. It was underpowered, overpriced, had no floppy drive, and only two USB ports. And yet because it looked like a jellybean, everyone wanted one. Whole books were devoted to it, websites were dedicated to it, teenage boys drew hentai representations of it -- yet it was just a gimmick.

--Encyclopedia Dramatica


QUOTE
RDF is said to distort an audience's sense of proportion or scale. Small advances are applauded as breakthroughs. Interesting developments become turning points, or huge leaps forward. RDF focuses less on outright deception and more on warping the powers of judgment.

-- Wikipedia
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Ruggiero
post Feb 27 2007, 01:23 AM
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"You can't upgrade a mac."

?

The Mac I am currently typing on shipped in 1999 with a 32MB Rage Pro Graphics card (now 256MB Radeon), 128MB of RAM (now 1.5GB), a 500mhz g4 processor, (now dual 1Ghz processors), 80mb hard disk (now two 120's). CD-R (now Superdrive).

bang.gif

R


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TheLizardKing
post Feb 27 2007, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(SubtleStar @ Feb 26 2007, 09:07 PM)
According to my research, people who want to make a REAL web pages use Dreamweaver.


I don't much care to get into the whole mac versus windows debate, considering I have both but I will say I enjoyed your comment above.


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SubtleStar
post Feb 28 2007, 08:26 PM
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I assume what you bought was one of those G4 Towers? But we're not talking about those. What we're talking about now is what's currently out there for consumers. Sure, they still sell G5 and now Core 2 Towers, but those are very expensive ($2,500 for the tower alone) because they do some pretty heavy duty stuff. That isn't what the average consumer is going to buy, unless they have need for something that the G5/Core2 Towers offer.

Yes, those have room for expansion. But I'm talking about iMacs. What you buy is what you're stuck with. When looking at every iMac listed on Best Buy's website, this is what I see.

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TheLizardKing
post Feb 28 2007, 11:59 PM
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I personally bought a MacBook Pro myself. Where did ye take the image from?


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JayBaen
post Mar 22 2007, 05:56 PM
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http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3667201

"Microsoft is frequently dinged for having insecure products, with security holes and vulnerabilities. But Symantec, no friend of Microsoft, said in its latest research report that when it comes to widely-used operating systems, Microsoft is doing better overall than its leading commercial competitors."

and

"Then there's Mac OS X. Despite the latest TV ads ridiculing the security in Vista with a Matrix-like Agent playing the UAC in Vista, Apple has nothing to brag about. Symantec found 43 vulnerabilities in Mac OS X and a 66 day turnaround on fixes. Fortunately, only one was high priority ... By contrast, King said there have been complaints in the past about Apple's lack of response to security issues. But as the Mac and Linux gain marketshare, they will have to respond much quicker."


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