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[Deacon]

Let’s not confuse the two issues.

“Transparency in government is a hallmark of democracy. The stuff on those videos can not be construed as a state secret. If we do not have transparency, if we do not have forthright governance…”

I do not think that means what you think that means… That assumes that forthright governance and that transparency in government are dependant upon each other, which they are not. In regards to this comment, we must assume that the majority of society has a clue… which, they don’t.

Transparent/Open Government

We're a representative democracy and therefore we are not always included in the inner-workings of the government... that's what our elected officials do. If you prefer a direct democracy I say go for it... you'll have to deal with the idiots of the US more, but try it... see how it feels.

Forthright Government
What a #@*)@#*) nightmare. We can't have this as long as the people in our society can't agree. I think Bush has been somewhat straightforward... (I said somewhat). We got attacked... we launched an attack agaist terrorist worldwide... the Government should not make it seem like Iraq was payback for September 11, rather it is an attack on a Dictator that has been know to use and support terrorism.

Missile vs Plane

I’ve learned something interesting while working for the government. The government moves at its own pace… (Duh!) One good reason for this is that one screw-up can affect millions of people. Was it not the media that descended on the Pentagon looking for stories? How many times does the News/Media industry misinterpret information or put their own spin on things? The people want answers and the media gives them answers… whether they’re the correct answers can be address after the fact.

Why haven’t the tapes been released? Assume, and this is a BIG assumption, that the attack on the pentagon was in-fact a missile attack. What good would come from releasing the tapes? Do we really need thousands on conspiracy theorist inundating the general populace with stories of terror? Doesn’t the Media do a sufficient job with this already?

The US got caught with their pants down… in a BIG way. Keep it simple… Make all the attacks the same and people will feel empowered enough to stop them. People will say, “I can spot a suspicious looking person on the highway or at the airport.” What does the average or, as is unfortunately our case, the below average person know about munitions transportation? If the attack was a missile strike, does that make the event any less significant? Some things the public can’t handle. (And YES, I think that statement is true…)

Some things the “average Joe” doesn’t have enough knowledge about. For the few of us that are prone to fits of higher thinking it is the price we pay for living in our… um… well… err… unique society.

A good percentage of Americans are undereducated… A good percentage of Americans are self-involved… A good percentage of Americans haven’t got a clue AND don’t want one… AMERICA!

“…if we have a vice-president who equates a vote against bush with a vote for terrorism, all I can say is…”

Worse people have been quoted saying more horrible things. Chances are the message was misspoken as no intelligent person would ever believe the statement as it was read. The Vice President’s comments don’t make John Kerry’s platform any stronger. Bush is reactive and Kerry is proactive (closer to a standstill really). The problem is that world politics don’t move at the campaign trail’s speed.

Don’t get me wrong… I love the United States of America. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. I just don’t think highly of the majority of Americans because they are lazy. I don’t think highly of Bush, but he is trying to do the best job that he can (God help us). I don’t think highly of Kerry because he takes too long to make a choice and then, when he does, he changes his mind 5 times before committing.

I'm sure that I've left something out of this post, but the "lazy american" in me is taking over... or maybe it's the pain meds I've been enjoying... Eitherway, I don't think we can connect the comments of the VP to the video shown earlier. It is a poor game of connect the dots at best.

Soap-Box-Mode Disengage,
Deacon

[InfiniteWarrior]

One good reason for this is that one screw-up can affect millions of people.

ONE???? You did just say "one screw-up". Euh... yeah, *restraining myself*.

Why haven’t the tapes been released?

Uh, guys... I hate to point this out, but um... didn't you just WATCH them? (I do believe I've seen them before, too. Not long after... uh, yeah, Sept 11. Really wish I could remember *where*, but - please remember - I am old... and senile.

Worse people have been quoted saying more horrible things.

True. But right this minute, I can't think of anything more stupid or evil than for a leader of the free world to say, "A vote for the opposition is a vote for terrorism." Gee... I would equate that with... well, TERRORISM. Translates this way: If you don't vote for us, you'd better be afraid. Very, very afraid. Yeah, right. Like you don't have the whole world in knots already?

Some things the “average Joe” doesn’t have enough knowledge about.

Thus, I think, Rugg's "updates". No truer words ever spoken.

The government moves at its own pace…

Waaaaaaaaay too slow or way, way too fast. A little thought might have been in order these past four years. Oh, but wait! They WERE thinking. They were thinking, "Okay. How can we use this to our PERSONAL advantage."

I don't think we can connect the comments of the VP to the video shown earlier. It is a poor game of connect the dots at best.

Well, that's true enough... until you look at the WHOLE picture as it's unfolded to this point. No one can make sense of pixels. You have to zoom out and take it all in.

I don’t think highly of Kerry because he takes too long to make a choice and then, when he does, he changes his mind 5 times before committing.

I really hate that about him, too. But, at least, D-ick Cheney isn't his puppeteer... I mean... Svengali... I mean... "advisor".

You've got some good points there, though. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to study those....

[Ruggiero]

1: Bush has NOT been forthright or honest, Deacon. He has been systematically dishonest about intelligence gathered, including his statements to the united nations general assembly (e.g. iraq and uranium--intelligence which was questioned openly by the entire world) and has blurred the line between 9/11 and Iraq in order to facilitate his preexisting agenda. This has been reported numerous times.

2: in the face of OVERWHELMING contradictory evidence he and his administration continue to conflate the two issues of iraq and bin laden, rhetorically and otherwise. This is disingenuous, and wrong. Over 1000 americans have died, and over 6000 have been maimed for life in this vendetta. Not to count the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. those are real lives lost.

A sobering fact: The International Red Cross put the number of CIVILIAN deaths in the first desert storm at a "conservative" 140,000--more than hiroshima and nagasaki combined. The iraqi army deaths were around 80,000.

In the years that followed under the sanctions, the UN has put the number of deaths in iraq at a once again conservative 2.5 Million.

It is no surprise that we are not welcomed as heroes. It is not surprising that many people in this country and throughout the world think that agression based on falsehoods is murder.

30 out of 35 industrial countries think this administration should go.

3: Transparency in government means, among other things, that the system of justice is transparent. That means THAT YOU CAN NOT SECRETLY HOLD A US CITIZEN AS A PRISONER WITHOUT A HABEAS CORPUS HEARING AND WITHOUT ACCESS TO A LAWYER. The government, despite numerous rulings to the contrary has continued to hold citizens. They are only now getting granted access to lawyers. It is true, that Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. That was the last time it happened. However, he did it openly.

4: Agents of our army and intelligence services tortured people because of top-down calculated gray-areas in their instructions.

5: Read the papers. Cheney was ABSOLUTELY NOT quoted out of context by the New York times yesterday on the front page. Also, the fact that ashcroft said that if you are against me, you are for the terrorists, is frigging ludicrous. Dissent is being stifled.

6: Can you tell I am pissed?

7: The Republican congress is letting the assault weapons ban end on tuesday. Thank god we can all go shop for uzis again.

I am moving back to Rodia.

Ruggiero

[Deacon]

One Potato, Two Potato

I think we're kinda-sorta making the same point. The reason that they move slow is because one screw-up is dangerous enough... I used one as an example, making the assumption that 2 screw-ups would at least cause 2Xs the damage... assuming that the scale in linear.

Tapes Released

I'm sure there is a huge amout of data that we may never see.

Evil Speaks

I'm hoping that he made a mistake by saying that; however, it would not be out of the norm for that kind of tactic to be used in a campain. Reagan and Carter did it, but they were more charismatic about it.

Federal Government on Speed

The way to use this to our advantage is to affect things at the local and state level. That is one of the main reasons these branches of government were created. I liken the whole thing to an aircraft carrier. The main ship moves slow, but the plane and choppers can be lauched to make strikes before the threat gets to the main ship. People need to be more active in their local polictics before they can ever hope to affect the federal government.

Master of Puppets

Ummm... well... errr... I don't see it, but I'll take your word for it.

--Deacon

An all around great guy!

Doh, that was just my sig.

[Deacon]

Bush has NOT been forthright or honest, Deacon.

It is no surprise that we are not welcomed as heroes. It is not surprising that many people in this country and throughout the world think that agression based on falsehoods is murder.

30 out of 35 industrial countries think this administration should go.

Agents of our army and intelligence services tortured people because of top-down calculated gray-areas in their instructions.

Read the papers. Cheney was ABSOLUTELY NOT quoted out of context by the New York times yesterday on the front page

Can you tell I am pissed?

The Republican congress is letting the assault weapons ban end on tuesday. Thank god we can all go shop for uzis again.

I am moving back to Rodia.

I'll comment on a few items... the others are being digested...

I never said Bush was honest. I said he was straightforward... I wasn't fooled by most of his comments.

I never expected to be welcomed anywhere as a hero. Show me a government that isn't corrupt and I'll give you a cookie. The system is broken... let's fix it, but let's also address the real issues. Bush and Bush didn't start our involvement in these countries, they just did a poor job at maintaining our involvement.

30 out of 35 eh? When they run the country the can make the calls... until then it will be people like you and I, fighting to make a difference, that will change things. I also promise you that 29 of those countries have personal agendas that are affecting their opinions.

I never said torture was right. I also am not foolish enough to think that it hasn't been happening for years... even before Bush. Leave it to an election year to bring out the morals in society... shouldn't they be there 24/7?

Cheney quoted out of text? I never said THAT either... I said had misspoken (or I hope for his sake he did). 'Tis a bit of a difference.

Sure I can tell you're pissed... AND YOU SHOULD BE! Be pissed, be enraged, be whatever you want, but keep speaking. Silence will walk the wrong person, whomever that may be, right into the White House.

Assult Weapons? Yes, the republicans are dragging their heals and THAT should not happen. One thought though... isn't congress, IN GENERAL, acting a little late on this? Way to go congress... both sides.

Moving back to Rodia?... well, you'll be missed... Please keep in touch... Send a postcard... I'll just sit here and debate with myself until you get back.

--Deacon

P.S. I'll post more later, but dinner is awaitin'

[Ruggiero]

Actually congress has been pressed on the assault weapons thing for a long time. The Republicans control the agenda. If Bush had wanted this on the floor, the GOP leadership on the floor would have brought it to a vote.

Noted without comment:



and... what he continues to do:

Cheny again links saddam/queda

[Deacon]

It has long be believed that countries like Iraq, while not openly supporting Al Qaeda, have turned a blind eye to their movements in their country.

I'm not pro-war, but I am of the mindset that if you're not proactivly fighting terrorism (and I mean any country that engages in terrorist activities) than you're aiding terrorism. That doesn't mean we should go to war with those countries.

The politics in today's world don't revolve around the Bush administration. Countries that don't like the US will find a problem with the next administration no matter who it is.

Just a thought.
Deacon

[Ruggiero]

World Opinion on Bush V. Kerry

World on Bush V. Kerry #2

What is particularly interesting is this, Deacon, it is not Syria and other folks who do not like us etc. which the poll is talking about:

Kerry was particularly favored in traditionally strong U.S. allies and beat Bush on average by more than a two-to-one margin, 46 percent to 20 percent, the survey by GlobeScan Inc, a global research firm, and the University of Maryland, said.

-----

Actively fighting terrorism does not mean preemptively invading sovereign nations with an exploitative mindset influenced heavily by corporate concerns.

And, if it were a "humanitarian" issue that sent us into Iraq, it only illustrates blatant hypocrisy. There have been over 2 million killed in the Sudan over the last 10 years, and there is active genocide there now. Are we there? No. There have been genocides in Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe. Are we there? No. Obviously, Iraq has something we want, that the others don't. Oil, and the promise of riches for the companies that form the backbone of the Bush fundraising machine.

I am all for stopping the destructive activities of radical groups throughout the world. However, it should be noted that there are many reasons that people hate the United States and its international policies, and not all of the reasons are ungrounded or even unreasonable, and people can, and should, be free to resist those policies (cf. Chavez in Venezuela), and more importantly, the current Bush regime's hegemonic agenda.

There have been a lot of people who have been called terrorists in the world: Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Paul Revere, Ethan Allen among them. The Boston mob beat up civilians, burned their houses, literally tarred and feathered people, and, if you believe what the British (the dominant colonial power, much like the U.S. now) said at the time, murdered their subjects. "Terrorist" is a label that is very troublesome, as one man's terrorist is another's patriot.

Murder is never, ever, excusable as a tactic, and the murder of civilians is abhorrent in any and all cases: including our own. However, defiance of the United States' agenda is all-too-easily labeled terrorism, to facilitate our motives. Finally, disregarding the long-standing US policy against a war of choice is very troublesome.

In closing, I just really want to say Oobawanga to Bush.

--Ruggiero

[Deacon]

Just out of curiosity, why is it you and I that get into these battles? I haven't seen anyone chime in.

Again, I'll post more after I've digested your comments.

--Deacon

[Ruggiero]

Just out of curiosity, why is it you and I that get into these battles?

Because we secretly have a crush on eachother and don't want anyone to know?

[Kyzene]

Well the truth is out now... as for chiming in...it takes a little while longer for me to digest all things political ill be chiming in soon though


Ky

[XeroSaber]

lmao, rugg and deacon sittin in a tree, arguing po-lit-ic-a-ly. first comes bush, then comes kerry, then comes deacon with the baby carriage!

[Ruggiero]

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

--Dante Alighieri

.....If anyone knew anything about the Inferno, it was Dante.



The lesson?

VOTE.

[Kyzene]

The Divine Trilogy, were the best freaking books i have EVER read

"The Divine Trilogy, WAS the best freaking books i have EVER read "<- DOH! wicked typo

Ky

[Ruggiero]

^^ Wow.

Dang, Ky. I didn't read Dante until college. I guess there really is nothing better to do up North!